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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 12, 2014 11:57:17 GMT
To avoid confusion, I should make a distinction between choice and "free choice". The opposite of a "free" choice would be an "unfree" choice. If someone is forced to make a choice, can it be thought of as a choice at all? I don't think so. Much of this confusion comes from different definitions of the word "choice".
The WordWeb dictionary has three definitions for choice:
1. The person or thing chosen or selected
2. The act of choosing or selecting
3. One of a number of things from which only one can be chosen
We have the act of choosing which we call choice. We have the thing that was chosen which was called a choice, and yet it was still predetermined before we were presented with the available options. We would still be caused to choose. Since we don't choose which choices are presented to us, we still cannot take credit or blame for them in the way we traditionally have done so. We cannot take ownership of any choice and claim that "we chose it".
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 13, 2014 8:47:46 GMT
When talking about choice and free choice, we are addressing the issue colloquially rather than literally. In other words, because causal antecedents regress beyond all of our "choices," most technically, as you point out, we never actually "choose" anything, freely or otherwise.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 13, 2014 18:39:23 GMT
When talking about choice and free choice, we are addressing the issue colloquially rather than literally. In other words, because causal antecedents regress beyond all of our "choices," most technically, as you point out, we never actually "choose" anything, freely or otherwise. This is very difficult for many people to accept. Since I had a very difficult abusive childhood, I was already aware of many things I did not choose. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 7:50:35 GMT
One reason people find it hard to accept our lack of any choice is that they thereby mistakenly conclude that such a condition renders us incapable of changing in any meaningful way. That many people like you, and even many free will believers, are able to overcome the hurt of an abusive childhood, and even become exceptionally compassionate as a result, provides strong testament to the fact that our lack of free will in no way limits our ability to positively change and grow.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 14, 2014 20:44:30 GMT
One reason people find it hard to accept our lack of any choice is that they thereby mistakenly conclude that such a condition renders us incapable of changing in any meaningful way. That many people like you, and even many free will believers, are able to overcome the hurt of an abusive childhood, and even become exceptionally compassionate as a result, provides strong testament to the fact that our lack of free will in no way limits our ability to positively change and grow. Yes, we see plenty of evidence that people have changed for the better and come out of their bad background. I attribute this to our seeking to eliminate the pain and try to fight against the very specific things we remember hurting us and others we know. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 20:38:59 GMT
People need to understand that, in the common vernacular, while we certainly don't have free choice, we can and do choose to overcome even the most challenging past experiences; in fact, this kind of choice at times leads to great achievements in our world by people with a vastly different perspective that allows them to understand what evades those who enjoyed a more "favorable" past.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 16, 2014 22:49:58 GMT
People need to understand that, in the common vernacular, while we certainly don't have free choice, we can and do choose to overcome even the most challenging past experiences; in fact, this kind of choice at times leads to great achievements in our world by people with a vastly different perspective that allows them to understand what evades those who enjoyed a more "favorable" past. This raises the question of whether I would want my life to be different in the past than it was. If I had not endured what I did, could I have potentially turned out to be someone I didn't want to be? |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 20, 2014 22:44:35 GMT
Yeah,, I guess our sometimes not-so-pleasant experiences help us be who we would prefer to be, but what's interesting about that is that we don't really get to freely choose who we would prefer to be. I think we all go through different trials and challenges in life, and one of our tasks is to help find ways for future generations to experience the resulting growth through less pain by learning from our mistakes rather than from their own.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 20, 2014 23:11:55 GMT
Yeah,, I guess our sometimes not-so-pleasant experiences help us be who we would prefer to be, but what's interesting about that is that we don't really get to freely choose who we would prefer to be. I think we all go through different trials and challenges in life, and one of our tasks is to help find ways for future generations to experience the resulting growth through less pain by learning from our mistakes rather than from their own. Learning from our mistakes is something that is easier to do when we don't have the guilt that comes from thinking we chose a mistake. Instead it is as simple as effort to avoid that which we did not like the effects from when we did it in the past. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 23, 2014 7:09:42 GMT
Imagine how much better we all will all be at learning from mistakes once our world finally overcomes the free will illusion, and there is no longer even a question of whether what we do is up to us. Overcoming belief in free will could very rapidly result in the creation of a distinctly new and improved world where our evolution as individuals and as a species is ramped into overdrive.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 16:35:51 GMT
Imagine how much better we all will all be at learning from mistakes once our world finally overcomes the free will illusion, and there is no longer even a question of whether what we do is up to us. Overcoming belief in free will could very rapidly result in the creation of a distinctly new and improved world where our evolution as individuals and as a species is ramped into overdrive. I see your point, some free will believers might argue that removing free will removes responsibility or even claim you're excusing criminals, bigots and all sorts, but I see that isn't the case, you're not excusing them at all and you even said it yourself that you've got no problem with putting dangerous people away. Plus I can reverse their claim by pointing out that by removing fundamental blame, people wont have a logical reason to lie or hide their mistakes, I mean how many murders and rapes go unsolved because the criminals never owned up to them? |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 17:30:14 GMT
Some of my facebook friends have seen my recent posts about free will and think I am saying that we should just let people do whatever they want. Instead I think that understanding causality helps us predict potential crime and possibly prevent it.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 17:50:24 GMT
Some of my facebook friends have seen my recent posts about free will and think I am saying that we should just let people do whatever they want. Instead I think that understanding causality helps us predict potential crime and possibly prevent it. You're going to get that kind of criticism unfortunately, that is why I try to keep sensitive issues on my own Facebook or other peoples timeline to the bare minimum. Yes, understanding causality is a way to prevent crime and if those people who criticized you for it had any sense they'd be for it, rather than solving problems with violence all the time when the damage was already done. |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 18:09:01 GMT
My facebook wall tends to be mostly about sensitive issues with the occasional My Little Pony stuff. The reactions from people are often more honest than what people would say to me in person about something.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 18:38:01 GMT
My facebook wall tends to be mostly about sensitive issues with the occasional My Little Pony stuff. The reactions from people are often more honest than what people would say to me in person about something. Bronies are a target for verbal and physical abuse unfortunately, it's not right, all the trivial things people hate each other for, it is ridiculous how some people turn out, add to the fact there are trolls on Youtube who believe the mistreatment of bronies is justified or cool. Bullying is not cool and should not be acceptable in any society. |
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