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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 12, 2014 12:27:56 GMT
The belief in free will can often lead us into denial. If we believe that there is a problem, we might want to do something about it, but unless we have knowledge that change is possible, we won't know what to do. We make the mistake of waiting for "someone else" to fix the problem. Even worse, we sometimes might try to believe that the problem does not even exist! This is a funny trick our minds play on us. I don't blame people for not wanting to see the truth because sometimes it hurts. We find it easier to believe that there is no pain in this world. However, problems do not solve themselves. Instead of waiting for someone to make a change in this world, ask yourself this question: Can that someone be you?
If you have a desire of any sort, you will work to satisfy that desire. What is your desire? Do you want to reduce pain? Do you want to create beautiful art? Do you want to tell your story? Find your desire that you did not choose. You do not have the freedom of will to change or ignore that desire forever. What you do have is the freedom to act on that desire. This is why denial will disappear as you understand who you are and what you want.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 12, 2014 18:55:29 GMT
Ordinary, I think of free will belief-based denial as resulting from wanting to avoid the blame and attending guilt that comes from acknowledging personal wrongdoing, but your introduction to this thread reminded me that many people, hard-wired to seek pleasure and avoid pain as we all are, are incapable of overcoming belief in free will because they haven't yet figured out how to hold that understanding in a way that does not deny them their delusional sense of authorship.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 13, 2014 3:22:26 GMT
Ordinary, I think of free will belief-based denial as resulting from wanting to avoid the blame and attending guilt that comes from acknowledging personal wrongdoing, but your introduction to this thread reminded me that many people, hard-wired to seek pleasure and avoid pain as we all are, are incapable of overcoming belief in free will because they haven't yet figured out how to hold that understanding in a way that does not deny them their delusional sense of authorship. Yes, it is true that avoiding blame, guilt, and punishment can be a cause of denial. At the same time, a lot of it just comes from just wanting to avoid the pain that comes from knowing that some problems exist which are causing pain. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 13, 2014 9:19:27 GMT
I agree that both free will-believers and those of us who hold the notion as an illusion would at times be in denial of problems in the world that we in no way caused simply because facing those problems creates pain in us. It would seem, however, that some problems would have to be caused by free will-believers for them to need to resort to denial as a way of escaping the guilt of being fundamentally responsible for the pain these problems cause.
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 13, 2014 15:28:39 GMT
I think of free will belief-based denial as resulting from wanting to avoid the blame and attending guilt that comes from acknowledging personal wrongdoing, I'm not fully comprehending what you are suggesting here. Isn't blame and attending guilt that comes from acknowledging personal wrongdoing a result of the belief in free will (and not vice versa)? |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 13, 2014 23:26:59 GMT
Yes, to the extent one understands that one is not fundamentally responsible for what one does, when one invariably does something "wrong," one will not feel indicted, or blameworthy, for that wrong. With the belief in free will comes the feeling of blameworthiness, followed by the feeling of guilt over the wrong, and the pain guilt creates; it is this guilt and pain that is unconsciously avoided as denial.
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 14, 2014 16:55:01 GMT
it is this guilt and pain that is unconsciously avoided as denial. Ah, I get what you are saying here (and agree such guilt could be the cause of such denial - to avoid it). Thanks for the clarification. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 21:30:26 GMT
It really is a powerful truth. Without free will belief, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel fundamentally indicted, and without feeling fundamentally indicted, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel the guilt that leads to denial. I'm guessing this denial reaches far beyond climate change, abortion, and animal rights to include global poverty and virtually all aspects of our personal lives and relationships; free will belief-based denial is ubiquitous, and the harm it causes is profoundly unappreciated!
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 14, 2014 22:55:31 GMT
It really is a powerful truth. Without free will belief, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel fundamentally indicted, and without feeling fundamentally indicted, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel the guilt that leads to denial. I'm guessing this denial reaches far beyond climate change, abortion, and animal rights to include global poverty and virtually all aspects of our personal lives and relationships; free will belief-based denial is ubiquitous, and the harm it causes is profoundly unappreciated! I think it could potentially extend to anything in which one might have a little bit of cognitive dissonance over. That being said, they would need to have at least some intuition or feeling that the act (or lack of acting) is in fact a problem, to feel guilty over such enough to deny the problem exists altogether. ;-) |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 15, 2014 11:04:51 GMT
It really is a powerful truth. Without free will belief, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel fundamentally indicted, and without feeling fundamentally indicted, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel the guilt that leads to denial. I'm guessing this denial reaches far beyond climate change, abortion, and animal rights to include global poverty and virtually all aspects of our personal lives and relationships; free will belief-based denial is ubiquitous, and the harm it causes is profoundly unappreciated! Also at play is the free will fatalism which makes people believe that they cannot do anything about the problems that exist. If people had a free will, then no amount of books, blogs, and videos would change their mind about these subjects. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 9:24:43 GMT
It really is a powerful truth. Without free will belief, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel fundamentally indicted, and without feeling fundamentally indicted, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE to feel the guilt that leads to denial. I'm guessing this denial reaches far beyond climate change, abortion, and animal rights to include global poverty and virtually all aspects of our personal lives and relationships; free will belief-based denial is ubiquitous, and the harm it causes is profoundly unappreciated! I think it could potentially extend to anything in which one might have a little bit of cognitive dissonance over. That being said, they would need to have at least some intuition or feeling that the act (or lack of acting) is in fact a problem, to feel guilty over such enough to deny the problem exists altogether. ;-) 'Trick, I'm not sure free will belief would influence all cognitive dissonance. For example, in my happiness work, I "affirm" to my self that "I feel completely happy" as a way of intentionally creating this dissonance, which my mind then generally attempts to resolve by believing and accepting this affirmed statement; it doesn't seem that free will belief or not takes part in this process. |
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 16, 2014 13:37:44 GMT
I think it could potentially extend to anything in which one might have a little bit of cognitive dissonance over. That being said, they would need to have at least some intuition or feeling that the act (or lack of acting) is in fact a problem, to feel guilty over such enough to deny the problem exists altogether. ;-) 'Trick, I'm not sure free will belief would influence all cognitive dissonance. For example, in my happiness work, I "affirm" to my self that "I feel completely happy" as a way of intentionally creating this dissonance, which my mind then generally attempts to resolve by believing and accepting this affirmed statement; it doesn't seem that free will belief or not takes part in this process. I agree, not all cognitive dissonance, that's for sure (hence "potentially extend to"). I'd suspect the contradictory belief or idea (that creates the dissonance) would need to be the sort that would lead to guilt, for such to cause the denial - which there is no reason to feel guilty about affirming you feel happy for the sake of creating the output (unless such is at some other expense in which dissonance might arise). :-) |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 20:52:28 GMT
Your main point remains, though, that free will belief leads to the dissonant thought "I am a bad person," and free will believers must then overcome the dissonance-created pain by either ceasing to do what is causing them to feel guilty, or, as is perhaps more often the case, denying that their action is, in fact, wrong. Such denial is a recipe for our world staying mired in a deeply flawed status quo in many important areas like climate change, animal rights, global poverty, etc.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 21:51:08 GMT
Your main point remains, though, that free will belief leads to the dissonant thought "I am a bad person," and free will believers must then overcome the dissonance-created pain by either ceasing to do what is causing them to feel guilty, or, as is perhaps more often the case, denying that their action is, in fact, wrong. Such denial is a recipe for our world staying mired in a deeply flawed status quo in many important areas like climate change, animal rights, global poverty, etc. Sometimes the free will belief leads to this, people turning themselves into the police after committing a crime, out of guilt. But how many of them do this? most just deny their wrongdoing, shift blame onto others or try to cover their tracks. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 24, 2014 23:55:47 GMT
Police work and the whole criminal justice system would be so much respectful of people's rights and dignity were everyone to get that no one has a free will. Criminals wouldn't blame the police for doing their job, and the police wouldn't judge and abuse criminals for doing what fate compelled them to do.
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