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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 21:40:48 GMT
Yes, I'm hoping that as people overcome their delusion that what they do is up to them, they'll begin to overcome their profound sense of entitlement that makes them so callous and indifferent to the plight of so many people who were not as lucky as they in terms of making money, and who are really struggling. Free will belief causes arrogance, and a mistaken sense of "deserving," that makes many people very selfish; once they understand their success wasn't truly up to them, hopefully they will become more humble and compassionate. I would not be surprised if this paradigm shift ended the culture of entitlement to some degree, some of the rich give our youth today terrible influences and ideas, that they must have the latest of everything to be someone or worth something. So many luxury items that get advertised on television then people start thinking they need to have these items as if their life depended on it, remember what happened on Black Friday? can't remember which year or which USA state it was, but it was horrible, some people got trampled on in a supermarket if I remember right, all this craziness over electronic goods.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 21:56:43 GMT
Yes, I'm hoping that as people overcome their delusion that what they do is up to them, they'll begin to overcome their profound sense of entitlement that makes them so callous and indifferent to the plight of so many people who were not as lucky as they in terms of making money, and who are really struggling. Free will belief causes arrogance, and a mistaken sense of "deserving," that makes many people very selfish; once they understand their success wasn't truly up to them, hopefully they will become more humble and compassionate. I would not be surprised if this paradigm shift ended the culture of entitlement to some degree, some of the rich give our youth today terrible influences and ideas, that they must have the latest of everything to be someone or worth something. So many luxury items that get advertised on television then people start thinking they need to have these items as if their life depended on it, remember what happened on Black Friday? can't remember which year or which USA state it was, but it was horrible, some people got trampled on in a supermarket if I remember right, all this craziness over electronic goods. Yes, some people die from the black friday craziness. People are messed in the head with consumerism.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 24, 2014 0:05:59 GMT
Yes, some people die from the black friday craziness. People are messed in the head with consumerism. Whether it's consumerism, or addiction, or abortion, or animal abuse, the common thread to all of this dysfunction is conditioning, and conditioning is all about our not having a free will. Some people are afraid of "engineered" societies molded by scientists and thinkers, but in our world today, we either allow Madison Avenue to mold us, (and their basic concern is always to make a lot of money for themselves,) or for society to understand and accept the profound implications of free will being an illusion, and begin to purposely, creatively, and compassionately mold future generations in ways that are not intended to make the molders money, but rather to create a better world.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 24, 2014 11:26:18 GMT
Yes, conditioning is the reason for most if not all of the dysfunction we see. There could be nothing in our genetics that tells us to trample people on black friday, abort babies, or to abuse animals.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 28, 2014 19:18:32 GMT
Although climate change is a huge challenge for humanity, it also has the silver lining of forcing us to abandon the kind of conditioning that keeps us competing against each other. Especially because of relatively unappreciated aspects of climate change like disease vectors, we're moving into a "we all sink or swim" era where overcoming free will belief and the competitive conditioning it motivates will be an indispensable part of our survival as a species.
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laffx
New Member
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Post by laffx on Dec 16, 2014 16:38:15 GMT
I'd argue that the belief in free will causes much economic/wealth inequality (not to mention other inequalities - but that's for a different post) in the world by allowing us to place people on a pedestal of being more deserving over another person, and blame others who are of a lower status for their position (as if they could have done otherwise). I'd argue that once people recognize that they and others couldn't have, of their own accord, done otherwise, they will start to recognize that no one person is more or less deserving than any other person. With that recognition implemented on the masses and the psychology that follows, an age in which we look to equalize wealth and understand the importance of productivity for the sake of all people, rather than individualistic incentives - would be likely to follow. I devote a chapter to this in my book, but would like to hear other opinions and ideas surrounding such. Do you believe a shoe shiner or toilet scrubber should make the same amount of money as a doctor? P.S. I'm just trying act as a substitute for Enel Vale so expect a lot of questions like this from me.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Dec 16, 2014 17:28:28 GMT
Yes - I think ideally it would be best if people took on the positions and the work they do for the sake of a thriving equal society, rather than individual wealth acquirement. The problem, however, is that people don't hold the psychology of equality that the lack of free will leads to, so we need to play a balancing act between equality and unequal incentives (in the meantime).
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Post by chandlerklebs on Dec 17, 2014 13:40:41 GMT
I agree with Trick. I think a lot of the problem is that people seek jobs not because they want to do them but only because those jobs pay more.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Dec 17, 2014 16:46:48 GMT
I agree with Trick. I think a lot of the problem is that people seek jobs not because they want to do them but only because those jobs pay more. Free will believers then start accusing job seekers as being lazy or entitled when they want a job that pays them a set standard of living but aren't given one or are not given a raise in the minimum wage, I have spoken to somebody on Skype in a voice chat who fits this category. Reality is those peoples expectations came from the very society they grew up in, that is why Americans are less content with the basics as an African would be. It's not their fault and people should stop blaming them because this is getting us nowhere and especially in the time of the recession, peoples expectations in life are caused for all different reasons, one being peer pressure or the notion that you are "poor" or "worthless" if you don't have what others have like iphones, game consoles or designer clothes, consumerism does come into it to some extent and the jacked up prices of certain goods and services (major flaw of capitalism) certainly aren't helping.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Dec 17, 2014 16:56:41 GMT
Yes - I think ideally it would be best if people took on the positions and the work they do for the sake of a thriving equal society, rather than individual wealth acquirement. The problem, however, is that people don't hold the psychology of equality that the lack of free will leads to, so we need to play a balancing act between equality and unequal incentives (in the meantime). I think there needs to be a balance between dealing with unfairness and work incentives, going with that though there shouldn't be persecution against people with severe physical or learning disabilities who through no fault of their own cannot handle a full time job so need carers. It might be difficult for some people to accept but what have right wing ideas done in the UK back in 2011? caused riots due to student loan fees being tripled, thus led to a spike in crime rate and we can't have vigilantism skyrocketing all the time because then people get hurt and killed.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Dec 17, 2014 17:18:24 GMT
I'd argue that the belief in free will causes much economic/wealth inequality (not to mention other inequalities - but that's for a different post) in the world by allowing us to place people on a pedestal of being more deserving over another person, and blame others who are of a lower status for their position (as if they could have done otherwise). I'd argue that once people recognize that they and others couldn't have, of their own accord, done otherwise, they will start to recognize that no one person is more or less deserving than any other person. With that recognition implemented on the masses and the psychology that follows, an age in which we look to equalize wealth and understand the importance of productivity for the sake of all people, rather than individualistic incentives - would be likely to follow. I devote a chapter to this in my book, but would like to hear other opinions and ideas surrounding such. Do you believe a shoe shiner or toilet scrubber should make the same amount of money as a doctor? P.S. I'm just trying act as a substitute for Enel Vale so expect a lot of questions like this from me. The idea that a NMW fast food worker making the same amount of money as a politician wont be very popular with the libertarians and republicans. But I would agree that they are mistreated and if republicans had it their way their working conditions would be like foreign factories, I do find their ideas utterly disgusting, because we know if they could get away with it right wingers would justify slavery or free labor, but due to the lack of free will I have stopped wishing them a probable torment in some afterlife.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Dec 17, 2014 17:29:58 GMT
Although climate change is a huge challenge for humanity, it also has the silver lining of forcing us to abandon the kind of conditioning that keeps us competing against each other. Especially because of relatively unappreciated aspects of climate change like disease vectors, we're moving into a "we all sink or swim" era where overcoming free will belief and the competitive conditioning it motivates will be an indispensable part of our survival as a species. I feel rather than being overly competitive, people should address peoples limitations and look at what they can do to make a difference or what good they can contribute. We don't need human sacrifices or death penalty to deal with overpopulation, that can be done with birth control and common sense regulations on the welfare system.
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