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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 13:47:57 GMT
Since you talked about the Elliot Rodger case, would you mind addressing the issue of what exact methods of crime prevention should be used in the future in detail? and what methods should remain or be done away with? I understand that, with no free will you cannot fundamentally blame him, however twisted his views on women were, they had a cause that trail all the way back to the big bang.
People on Youtube were happy about the mans death, but being hateful towards him doesn't undo what he did or address the issue of violence. You made a good point George that you can only truly desire or seek revenge against a person if you first believed them to have a free will.
However there are other things I'd like to bring up, anger is not a nice feeling and bitterness is an emotion we can do without, stress causes health problems to us as well as other people around us, shortens our lifespan and inevitably results in a painful death to the sufferer of such negative emotion. I remember you saying something about this also, if we had a free will wouldn't we all will ourselves to be happy?
I have said in the past that as tempting the idea might be especially for family members affected by murder, the death penalty isn't worth voting for, primarily due to the risks it poses to innocent people who get accused of X crime, but morally it can also be argued that it perpetuates a culture of violence. Do you let 5 year olds watch 18 rated horror films? no, so no one in their right mind would want their little kids to witness an execution.
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 21, 2014 14:16:15 GMT
Regarding the death penalty, I tend to agree that in most cases such is unnecessary, but if the person is a constant threat to other inmates and guards, it might be assessed that it's best to put "the rabid dog down" to prevent further harm on others. But the whole idea of people "witnessing" such to obtain a feeling of retributive justice simply means that those people are stuck in their archaic thinking and free will psychology, a psychology that needs to change along with the understanding that there is no free will.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 14:40:00 GMT
Regarding the death penalty, I tend to agree that in most cases such is unnecessary, but if the person is a constant threat to other inmates and guards, it might be assessed that it's best to put "the rabid dog down" to prevent further harm on others. But the whole idea of people "witnessing" such to obtain a feeling of retributive justice simply means that those people are stuck in their archaic thinking and free will psychology, a psychology that needs to change along with the understanding that there is no free will. Good point, they can be a threat to other inmates or society if they escape and that is a huge problem, but instead of putting them down, I would invoke forced cryogenic freezing for such offenders until we find out what makes them tick, if there is no free will then in theory even serial murderers, sex offenders or torturers can be fixed, just as any computer can be repaired by an engineer, the human brain must obey these principles also seeing as it is a quantum computer. I've talked about this to a friend on Skype before, he believes instead of just snuffing them out, we should "reprogramme them" to become productive members of society or at the very least, make it so they are no longer impulsive to crimes against humans or animals. |
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 21, 2014 15:34:13 GMT
Ever watch the movie "A Clockwork Orange"?  But in all seriousness, I'm not so sure cryogenic freezing would be a better option than turning off the lights, even if it was possible. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 15:55:15 GMT
Ever watch the movie "A Clockwork Orange"? But in all seriousness, I'm not so sure cryogenic freezing would be a better option than turning off the lights, even if it was possible. Nope  and cryogenic freezing is possible, they managed to do it to a mouse kidney in a lab iirc, and a piece of brain tissue, ever seen Morgan Freeman's through the wormhole documentary? to fix sick minds like that though I would imagine you'd need to transfer their consciousness into the brain of a fetus or something and have them start life all over again. First law of thermodynamics is conservation of energy correct? you could say, we're already eternal in the sense that the energy that made us always existed and will continue to exist forever, deaths of stars sometimes give birth to new ones and we've already been born once, so I wouldn't say murder victims are gone forever, but rather have lost all memory of who they were in the previous life, they're lost to us but the energy and mass that made them is still here. |
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 21, 2014 20:11:54 GMT
Well I mean possible to do with people today, I have no doubt such a technology will be possible, but I just don't see the point of a needless consciousness extension, especially of some "broken" minds. I'd also suggest that energy in general and specific energy configurations (e.g. that create conscious states) are categorically different ontological assessments. ;-)
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 20:36:38 GMT
Well I mean possible to do with people today, I have no doubt such a technology will be possible, but I just don't see the point of a needless consciousness extension, especially of some "broken" minds. I'd also suggest that energy in general and specific energy configurations (e.g. that create conscious states) are categorically different ontological assessments. ;-) Well I'm just going off based on what I've learned from Ortega here  broken mind or not what he suggests is they were also victims of life, I understand that their victims didn't get a second chance but that doesn't mean we need to be like them. Had those broken people been born with the right genetics and environment they never would have gotten to the point where they'd hurt or kill someone, George Ortega makes a valid point, I mean we don't kill disabled people because they cost society financially, though that isn't quite the same thing as not all disabled people are dangerous. |
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trick
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Post by trick on Nov 21, 2014 21:40:02 GMT
If someone is a victim of life, it doesn't make sense (to me) to freeze them to have a different life in some future that they wouldn't know the first thing about (in which they will be a victim of various harms as well). Zombies would be victims as well, but I wouldn't freeze one that has eaten people alive in hopes for a cure. ;-)
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 23, 2014 6:55:58 GMT
I suppose until we have a definitive answer on what, if anything, happens to our "soul," or essence, after we die, some of us might want to opt for the safer choice of freezing suffering people in the hope of revitalizing them. The zombies example you raise presents the question of whether our post-human life existence would extend our current character, or whether this transition perhaps allows for a new beginning, and, considering that zombies would not have a free will, it would seem that they might therefore deserve this second chance in their subsequent reincarnation.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 12:42:23 GMT
I suppose until we have a definitive answer on what, if anything, happens to our "soul," or essence, after we die, some of us might want to opt for the safer choice of freezing suffering people in the hope of revitalizing them. The zombies example you raise presents the question of whether our post-human life existence would extend our current character, or whether this transition perhaps allows for a new beginning, and, considering that zombies would not have a free will, it would seem that they might therefore deserve this second chance in their subsequent reincarnation. Well quantum mechanics proved all existence really is is particles, no magic involved at all, the word magic oversimplifies things and is often used by people who don't understand how something in reality really works. Fortunately quantum physics opens up the possibility of reviving all dead people even though the chances are slim because finding the consciousness of each and every individual is like trying to find a lost grain of sugar on a beach, then the question becomes how do you make enough room for all these people? such technology wont exist for many centuries to come. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 24, 2014 23:15:05 GMT
Since you talked about the Elliot Rodger case, would you mind addressing the issue of what exact methods of crime prevention should be used in the future in detail? and what methods should remain or be done away with? I wanted to get back to the excellent basic point of this thread. I think the model for how our criminal justice system would work already exists within the mental health system; psychologists and psychiatrists don't judge, nor condemn, patients because they know that their condition was not their choosing, but such patients are nonetheless constrained by whatever rules are needed in order to maintain everyone's best interest. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 24, 2014 23:27:44 GMT
Since you talked about the Elliot Rodger case, would you mind addressing the issue of what exact methods of crime prevention should be used in the future in detail? and what methods should remain or be done away with? I wanted to get back to the excellent basic point of this thread. I think the model for how our criminal justice system would work already exists within the mental health system; psychologists and psychiatrists don't judge, nor condemn, patients because they know that their condition was not their choosing, but such patients are nonetheless constrained by whatever rules are needed in order to maintain everyone's best interest. [Administrator's note: does anyone know why the quote above is attributed to Chandler by the forum when it was Jamie's introductory statement?] I see what you mean, but did you ever look at the Jon Venables case? he tortured and killed a toddler named James Bulgar years ago in the UK, he was 10 at the time of his crime and lots of people wanted revenge against him even today, there are some people demanding that he be given the death penalty and his accomplice Robert Thompson, even though Robert Thompson is supposedly successfully rehabilitated since his release from prison. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 28, 2014 19:54:30 GMT
It's hard to hold a 10-year old very punitively responsible for what they do, even with the free will question aside. When societies do that, it just shows their cowardice at confronting their failings, and assuming responsibility for maintaining cultures that lead 10-year olds to act in barbaric ways.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 28, 2014 19:59:51 GMT
It's hard to hold a 10-year old very punitively responsible for what they do, even with the free will question aside. When societies do that, it just shows their cowardice at confronting their failings, and assuming responsibility for maintaining cultures that lead 10-year olds to act in barbaric ways. True it is, you aren't tried as an adult for certain crimes unless you're a teenager at least if I recall. Jon Venables was arrested again for child pornography if I remember the story correctly, but I'm not aware of the exact details on how he obtained it, did he download it or did he create it himself with a group of child abusers? as abhorrent the acts are, I'd still see it as a lesser offence for just looking, they're still sick people though and obviously have a lot of issues. |
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and cryogenic freezing is possible, they managed to do it to a mouse kidney in a lab iirc, and a piece of brain tissue, ever seen Morgan Freeman's through the wormhole documentary? to fix sick minds like that though I would imagine you'd need to transfer their consciousness into the brain of a fetus or something and have them start life all over again.
broken mind or not what he suggests is they were also victims of life, I understand that their victims didn't get a second chance but that doesn't mean we need to be like them. Had those broken people been born with the right genetics and environment they never would have gotten to the point where they'd hurt or kill someone, George Ortega makes a valid point, I mean we don't kill disabled people because they cost society financially, though that isn't quite the same thing as not all disabled people are dangerous.
