trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 13, 2014 13:13:53 GMT
I'd argue, considering the differences between abortion and infanticide, that there is no causal connection (the slippery slope is a fallacy). Regarding ecological footprints, there are many ways, and one way is to educate people on the ethical problems of procreation (for example, using the asymmetry argument). One weakness I have on the subject of procreation is that I don't understand why people want to procreate. I don't have a desire for sex and therefore will automatically not reproduce. I think people often have a psychological need to procreate due to their upbringing, rather than sex-drive. Even those who are causally homosexual or asexual may still psychologically want a "smaller version of them" that they can "mold" or to "pass on a part of them into the future" - which is usually an egoist response.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 13, 2014 18:09:25 GMT
One weakness I have on the subject of procreation is that I don't understand why people want to procreate. I don't have a desire for sex and therefore will automatically not reproduce. I think people often have a psychological need to procreate due to their upbringing, rather than sex-drive. Even those who are causally homosexual or asexual may still psychologically want a "smaller version of them" that they can "mold" or to "pass on a part of them into the future" - which is usually an egoist response. I think it is a rather bizarre desire and does require that we believe we are better than others. Since I view the life of all those who are already here as equal to me, I have no desire to pass on whatever genetics I didn't choose anyway.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 7:24:33 GMT
It's interesting that we don't get even the slightest degree of choice regarding whether we give birth to boys or girls, what color their hair will be, what kind of personality they will have, etc., and yet most of us are quite alright and uncomplaining about this subservience to destiny. However, when it comes to our own thoughts and acts, many of us who believe in free will proclaim that their lives would lose all meaning without this level of control; so, being able to autonomously choose whether to have an apple or an orange appears more important than choice over what kind of children they will have.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 8:10:02 GMT
'Trick, it is nearly universally acknowledged that procreation is an innate drive, along with survival and seeking pleasure/avoiding pain. The psychological needs you refer to may be largely the cognitive manifestations of this genetic imprinting, and perhaps some of us have what may also amount to the innate drive to become little "Gods," creating versions of ourselves designed to "extend" our existence beyond our personal lives.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 14, 2014 16:34:29 GMT
'Trick, it is nearly universally acknowledged that procreation is an innate drive, along with survival and seeking pleasure/avoiding pain. The psychological needs you refer to may be largely the cognitive manifestations of this genetic imprinting, and perhaps some of us have what may also amount to the innate drive to become little "Gods," creating versions of ourselves designed to "extend" our existence beyond our personal lives. Sex is an innate drive - other than humans most animals have no conception of or drive to procreate - rather just a drive for sex (or some other causal means that leads to procreation that the animal isn't aware of until they give birth and other instincts take hold). The psychological need to procreate mostly is human specific, and I'd suggest is more of an environmental / social causal output than a genetic one.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 14, 2014 20:27:14 GMT
It's interesting that we don't get even the slightest degree of choice regarding whether we give birth to boys or girls, what color their hair will be, what kind of personality they will have, etc., and yet most of us are quite alright and uncomplaining about this subservience to destiny. However, when it comes to our own thoughts and acts, many of us who believe in free will proclaim that their lives would lose all meaning without this level of control; so, being able to autonomously choose whether to have an apple or an orange appears more important than choice over what kind of children they will have. True, I wasn't bothered by the fact that I didn't choose my genetics. If we are able to accept this then accepting other things should not be so difficult.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 14, 2014 20:33:45 GMT
'Trick, it is nearly universally acknowledged that procreation is an innate drive, along with survival and seeking pleasure/avoiding pain. The psychological needs you refer to may be largely the cognitive manifestations of this genetic imprinting, and perhaps some of us have what may also amount to the innate drive to become little "Gods," creating versions of ourselves designed to "extend" our existence beyond our personal lives. Sex is an innate drive - other than humans most animals have no conception of or drive to procreate - rather just a drive for sex (or some other causal means that leads to procreation that the animal isn't aware of until they give birth and other instincts take hold). The psychological need to procreate mostly is human specific, and I'd suggest is more of an environmental / social causal output than a genetic one. I am guessing that the differences between the different beliefs and actions we take about sexuality are mostly a matter of nurture than nature. I don't think most animals follow religions that tell them specifically what other animals they must procreate with.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 14, 2014 21:01:05 GMT
Sex is an innate drive - other than humans most animals have no conception of or drive to procreate - rather just a drive for sex (or some other causal means that leads to procreation that the animal isn't aware of until they give birth and other instincts take hold). The psychological need to procreate mostly is human specific, and I'd suggest is more of an environmental / social causal output than a genetic one. I am guessing that the differences between the different beliefs and actions we take about sexuality are mostly a matter of nurture than nature. I don't think most animals follow religions that tell them specifically what other animals they must procreate with. I'd suspect that as well as a sex drive (mostly genetic causes) and our take on sexuality (which is probably defined by both genetic and environmental causes) are quite different things. Most animals don't even know what "procreation" is, it's something that just happens due to the events of a sex drive (in which for humans we have an understanding and have developed things called contraception). ;-)
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 15, 2014 10:54:53 GMT
I am guessing that the differences between the different beliefs and actions we take about sexuality are mostly a matter of nurture than nature. I don't think most animals follow religions that tell them specifically what other animals they must procreate with. I'd suspect that as well as a sex drive (mostly genetic causes) and our take on sexuality (which is probably defined by both genetic and environmental causes) are quite different things. Most animals don't even know what "procreation" is, it's something that just happens due to the events of a sex drive (in which for humans we have an understanding and have developed things called contraception). ;-) Humans are attempting to limit reproduction of their own species while at the same time, other animals are bred at factory farms(more than they would naturally in the wild) just for the purpose of being used and then killed. This is very strange when you think about it.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 15, 2014 12:49:56 GMT
I'd suspect that as well as a sex drive (mostly genetic causes) and our take on sexuality (which is probably defined by both genetic and environmental causes) are quite different things. Most animals don't even know what "procreation" is, it's something that just happens due to the events of a sex drive (in which for humans we have an understanding and have developed things called contraception). ;-) Humans are attempting to limit reproduction of their own species while at the same time, other animals are bred at factory farms(more than they would naturally in the wild) just for the purpose of being used and then killed. This is very strange when you think about it. Well to be clear, they are limiting their production to the children they want but the population is growing at an alarming rate since it has grown from from 1 billion in the 1800's to over 7 billion today and growing at a rate of 75 million annually. The scariest website is here: www.worldometers.info/world-population/ (you can watch the population as it rises by the second)
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 15, 2014 13:07:55 GMT
Humans are attempting to limit reproduction of their own species while at the same time, other animals are bred at factory farms(more than they would naturally in the wild) just for the purpose of being used and then killed. This is very strange when you think about it. Well to be clear, they are limiting their production to the children they want but the population is growing at an alarming rate since it has grown from from 1 billion in the 1800's to over 7 billion today and growing at a rate of 75 million annually. The scariest website is here: www.worldometers.info/world-population/ (you can watch the population as it rises by the second) In spite of all the abortion, contraception, and death by disease,war, and natural disaster, the population is still growing. This really scares me because of what it means for the future.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 8:58:44 GMT
We often have to make sacrifices for what we want. I wonder whether pro-lifers would be more amenable to understanding and accepting free will as an illusion if they were confident that by this they would be making great progress in minimizing abortion.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 16, 2014 14:15:10 GMT
We often have to make sacrifices for what we want. I wonder whether pro-lifers would be more amenable to understanding and accepting free will as an illusion if they were confident that by this they would be making great progress in minimizing abortion. Perhaps, but I think such being the reason for people to abandon the free will idea would sort of place the cart before the horse. I'd rather see people abandon the idea of free will due to understanding that it's a logically bankrupt idea and why it is, and applying that same type of critical thinking to the abortion debate (as well as any other belief or idea they may hold).
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 16, 2014 17:48:26 GMT
We often have to make sacrifices for what we want. I wonder whether pro-lifers would be more amenable to understanding and accepting free will as an illusion if they were confident that by this they would be making great progress in minimizing abortion. For the sake of truth, I must admit that determinism shows free will to be an illusion whether or not it reduces abortion. That being said, I think that knowing this will reduce abortion and this is a large part of what made me interested in the free will topic to begin with.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 17, 2014 23:33:52 GMT
Absolutely; with free will invariably comes indictment, then guilt, and the unconscious attempt to escape the pain of that guilt through denial. Certainly humanity revering life more would also be necessary, but I think overcoming free will belief would be an invaluable help in enabling us to do so.
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