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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 20:56:17 GMT
Academic scientists and philosophers can be very - even ruthlessly - competitive in their search for recognition of their work. I'm actually working on such a "peer pressure via embarrassment" study proposal that I intend to send to scholars who understand that free will is an illusion, and will post it here once it's done.
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trick
Junior Member
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Post by trick on Nov 17, 2014 22:53:15 GMT
I'm actually working on such a "peer pressure via embarrassment" study proposal that I intend to send to scholars who understand that free will is an illusion, and will post it here once it's done. Great, can't wait to see the results of such.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 19, 2014 12:16:38 GMT
I think the "free will" test for rational intelligence, as distinct from memory strength, may ultimately prove as effective a predictor of future scientific achievement as is the marshmallow experiment a predictor academic success.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 20, 2014 12:37:03 GMT
I think the "free will" test for rational intelligence, as distinct from memory strength, may ultimately prove as effective a predictor of future scientific achievement as is the marshmallow experiment a predictor academic success. I think that asking someone what they think about free will is a way of generally knowing what background they came from. You can ask them such questions like: "Do you believe everything happens for a reason?".
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 20, 2014 16:17:18 GMT
I think the "free will" test for rational intelligence, as distinct from memory strength, may ultimately prove as effective a predictor of future scientific achievement as is the marshmallow experiment a predictor academic success. I think that asking someone what they think about free will is a way of generally knowing what background they came from. You can ask them such questions like: "Do you believe everything happens for a reason?". I think asking if "everything happens for a reason" can be confusing, as reason is an ambiguous word that often implies intention (in which case I'd say no). Rather, is everything caused to happen would be less problematic.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 20, 2014 23:02:04 GMT
I think that asking someone what they think about free will is a way of generally knowing what background they came from. You can ask them such questions like: "Do you believe everything happens for a reason?". I think asking if "everything happens for a reason" can be confusing, as reason is an ambiguous word that often implies intention (in which case I'd say no). Rather, is everything caused to happen would be less problematic. I see your point and agree that it could be confusing. I know everything has a cause but that often there is no intention to cause something.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 23, 2014 7:00:53 GMT
I think asking if "everything happens for a reason" can be confusing, as reason is an ambiguous word that often implies intention (in which case I'd say no). Rather, is everything caused to happen would be less problematic. What's interesting about our not having a free will is that our "intentions" really belong to the universe, as does any manifestation of our intelligence. I think what we're left having to face is the very likely prospect that this universe scientists religiously hold to be nothing more than a thing, has both consciousness and intention; although the infinite regress behind any intention it might express would logically prevent us from definitively ascribing an exact moment in time when that intention would have occurred.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 23, 2014 13:10:51 GMT
I think intentionality came about with the evolution of conscious creature (conscious creatures hold thoughts and intentions). That doesn't imply there was an intention for the causal rise of conscious creatures with intention (e.g. billions of years before any thinking/intentional creature ever causally manifested).
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 18:12:09 GMT
It would be helpful if academics who understand free will to be an illusion began to conduct studies to better identify the various source of other academics inability to grasp this truth. Apart from week critical thinking skills, I think some academics simply lack the emotional maturity to, as science demands, overcome their personal needs and wants regarding "how" reality "should" be. I like that idea, but can you imagine the uproar in the scientific community if scientists attempted to build a study to explain other scientist's "inability to grasp the truth"? I can only imagine! ;-) One thing that troubled me with the idea of personal responsibility is that if free will were real, why is it so difficult for addicts to quit? I haven't read up ONE case where a hardcore drug addict actually managed to give up within minutes of therapy. Dreams also refute free will, dreams are governed by the subconscious during REM sleep and you cannot control them, that is why we have nightmares, our thoughts are not our own, nor are they in our control, it's just so obvious and I wished I had this all figured out earlier in my lifetime.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 18:14:46 GMT
Yes, people have a very difficult time overcoming alcohol or drug addiction. As you pointed out, our dreams are not something we control.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 18:18:30 GMT
I think asking if "everything happens for a reason" can be confusing, as reason is an ambiguous word that often implies intention (in which case I'd say no). Rather, is everything caused to happen would be less problematic. What's interesting about our not having a free will is that our "intentions" really belong to the universe, as does any manifestation of our intelligence. I think what we're left having to face is the very likely prospect that this universe scientists religiously hold to be nothing more than a thing, has both consciousness and intention; although the infinite regress behind any intention it might express would logically prevent us from definitively ascribing an exact moment in time when that intention would have occurred. Plus we can't will what memories are stored and which ones are not and this is where the free will belief can become extremely damaging, through forgetfulness you can have all sorts of accusations thrown at you. For example, people would say you're selfish because you forgot your mothers birthday, you begin to resent that person who accused you of such a thing and the treadmill of hatred keeps turning, you see examples of what free will belief does when you watch episodes of the Jeremy Kyle show.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 18:26:27 GMT
Yes, people have a very difficult time overcoming alcohol or drug addiction. As you pointed out, our dreams are not something we control. Yes, and dreams are one of the many contradictions with the whole dogma of "sin" and free will If in the mind and sexual orientation you lust for a woman, man, plant, animal or whatever when you're already married to a woman, is it a choice? If it isn't a choice, it cannot be "evil" or your own fault. This is the problem I have with types of people who push the agenda that dark thoughts make you an evil person, it's utter rubbish and destructive.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 24, 2014 11:29:21 GMT
Yes, people have a very difficult time overcoming alcohol or drug addiction. As you pointed out, our dreams are not something we control. Yes, and dreams are one of the many contradictions with the whole dogma of "sin" and free will If in the mind and sexual orientation you lust for a woman, man, plant, animal or whatever when you're already married to a woman, is it a choice? If it isn't a choice, it cannot be "evil" or your own fault. This is the problem I have with types of people who push the agenda that dark thoughts make you an evil person, it's utter rubbish and destructive. Totally agreed there. When people believe that certain things like dreams or sexual orientation can be chosen, we know they are under the harmful free will illusion.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 25, 2014 16:17:56 GMT
Yes, and dreams are one of the many contradictions with the whole dogma of "sin" and free will If in the mind and sexual orientation you lust for a woman, man, plant, animal or whatever when you're already married to a woman, is it a choice? If it isn't a choice, it cannot be "evil" or your own fault. This is the problem I have with types of people who push the agenda that dark thoughts make you an evil person, it's utter rubbish and destructive. Totally agreed there. When people believe that certain things like dreams or sexual orientation can be chosen, we know they are under the harmful free will illusion. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2847519/Self-confessed-paedophile-39-admits-sexually-attracted-children-young-FOUR-Channel-4-documentary-denies-s-committed-crime.htmlI do not believe this is a choice either, this is one of the few things that led me to accept that free will is an illusion, especially a taboo subject such as this one, TheBadcop69 spoke on this topic before on Youtube and I've even had death threats for speaking on these topics in the past on Facebook on my friend Shaun Gawler's page. I understand that parents want to protect their kids but they must understand that violence isn't the answer to our worlds problems and threatening or persecuting those who haven't offended is just so wrong, they're someone else's friend, brother or sister.
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