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Post by George Ortega on Nov 10, 2014 22:40:08 GMT
Free Will believers like Vohs and Schooler assert that believing in free will leads to more ethical behavior, but I've found the exact opposite in my research. Here's a quote from my recent book Free Will: Its Refutation, Societal Cost and Role in Climate Change Denial ( free download here - refutation.webs.com/fw.pdf ) that describes the harm free will belief causes as a result of the blame that is the logical, inescapable correlate of the belief in free will:
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 11, 2014 7:00:03 GMT
I found that I was falsely blaming others for things only to discover that they could not have done otherwise than what they did. This did in fact cause me to hate them until I got over the illusion of free will.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 13, 2014 8:32:10 GMT
Free will belief is so very harmful; it would actually be rationally impossible to hate anyone or any group without first believing that they have a free will, and are therefore fundamentally blame-worthy. Can you imagine how much hate could be done away with in our world by everyone simply acknowledging that free will is an illusion?
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 14, 2014 0:52:19 GMT
Free will belief is so very harmful; it would actually be rationally impossible to hate anyone or any group without first believing that they have a free will, and are therefore fundamentally blame-worthy. Can you imagine how much hate could be done away with in our world by everyone simply acknowledging that free will is an illusion? I can imagine it and I am convinced that we are taking the path that leads to a more compassionate world. We must continue even though some people will hate us for it.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 20:39:37 GMT
Our challenge, Chandler, is to craft an explanation of our lack of free will in such a way that not only will people not hate us, they will actually love us for it. One of the ways I try to do this is by describing the link between free will belief and climate change denial, but for many people, a more effective strategy would be to describe to them how free will belief comes between them and those they love and care about.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 15, 2014 11:14:28 GMT
Our challenge, Chandler, is to craft an explanation of our lack of free will in such a way that not only will people not hate us, they will actually love us for it. One of the ways I try to do this is by describing the link between free will belief and climate change denial, but for many people, a more effective strategy would be to describe to them how free will belief comes between them and those they love and care about. Yes, just think of how many families are divided because they blame others for things that were predictable years in advance. Often a problem comes between parents try to boss their children around about what college they must go to or who they can marry or not.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 9:16:29 GMT
To the extent people understand that free will is an illusion, they may still have differences and compete for limited resources, but they will go about this far more amicably. Overcoming free will belief re-positions family members away from being on opposing sides to being on the same side against the fate that is afflicting them all.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 16, 2014 17:56:04 GMT
To the extent people understand that free will is an illusion, they may still have differences and compete for limited resources, but they will go about this far more amicably. Overcoming free will belief re-positions family members away from being on opposing sides to being on the same side against the fate that is afflicting them all. Yes, people will be able to work more as a team rather than enemies. There needs to be a way of reducing the division between family and friends.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 19, 2014 3:56:48 GMT
Although it's something we mostly ignore, media violence, (TV, movies, video games, books, etc.) where people are constantly hurting and killing each other, filters into our personal lives in subtle ways that may not lead to us being violent, ourselves, but probably increases the level of hostility across the board when we have differences with those around us. Much of this media violence is "justified" by what the characters in the story did, or failed to do, and so removing that "excuse" for hostility and aggression in story lines by weaving a lack belief in free will into plots and scenes could very effectively re-condition us to be much kinder, and more understanding, toward each other.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 19, 2014 11:40:55 GMT
Although it's something we mostly ignore, media violence, (TV, movies, video games, books, etc.) where people are constantly hurting and killing each other, filters into our personal lives in subtle ways that may not lead to us being violent, ourselves, but probably increases the level of hostility across the board when we have differences with those around us. Much of this media violence is "justified" by what the characters in the story did, or failed to do, and so removing that "excuse" for hostility and aggression in story lines by weaving a lack belief in free will into plots and scenes could very effectively re-condition us to be much kinder, and more understanding, toward each other. I have been bothered for a long time about the violence in media and the message it often sends. It has the problem of causing people to think that violence is the answer to most or all problems.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 23, 2014 6:43:49 GMT
Yes, violence in the media is an excellent reason for helping our world understand that we humans are very much like computers where "garbage in, garbage out (gigo)" is the rule. Free will belief says we like violence simply because we freely will to do so, but that's nonsense; we like the violence that then seeps out of us in many unconscious ways because we've been conditioned in this by previous generations.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 13:05:03 GMT
Yes, violence in the media is an excellent reason for helping our world understand that we humans are very much like computers where "garbage in, garbage out (gigo)" is the rule. Free will belief says we like violence simply because we freely will to do so, but that's nonsense; we like the violence that then seeps out of us in many unconscious ways because we've been conditioned in this by previous generations. Are you suggesting that in future violent media be banned? I get the logic in outlawing notions of Hell, I have even suggested it myself a few times because being told or brainwashed into believing you'll be tortured forever for something you never truly had a choice in is horrible. But most people watch violent TV shows or films as a means of entertainment or escapism, and it can be argued that things such as violent video games pacify people, keep them occupied so they don't attack the public, there are a few exceptions, like the incident AlphaOmegaSin talked about where a couple of guys started fighting over Call of Duty Advanced Warfare, cases like this are rare.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 13:13:31 GMT
Although it's something we mostly ignore, media violence, (TV, movies, video games, books, etc.) where people are constantly hurting and killing each other, filters into our personal lives in subtle ways that may not lead to us being violent, ourselves, but probably increases the level of hostility across the board when we have differences with those around us. Much of this media violence is "justified" by what the characters in the story did, or failed to do, and so removing that "excuse" for hostility and aggression in story lines by weaving a lack belief in free will into plots and scenes could very effectively re-condition us to be much kinder, and more understanding, toward each other. I have been bothered for a long time about the violence in media and the message it often sends. It has the problem of causing people to think that violence is the answer to most or all problems. Point taken, yes sometimes mature video games or movies tend to be over the top, but most people don't really take it seriously. If you died in Borderlands 2, you would occasionally hear the message of Hell and what it is reserved for, joke or not just having it in the game in the first place is controversial. We have too many problems relating to religion as it is without it being conveyed or hinted in our entertainment mediums.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 17:48:24 GMT
The messages of violence are about as common as the free will belief. There is no way to ban all of it right now but rather me can promote cooperation, teamwork, peace, friendship, and compassion that comes after we understand determinism and stop blaming people.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 17:56:07 GMT
The messages of violence are about as common as the free will belief. There is no way to ban all of it right now but rather me can promote cooperation, teamwork, peace, friendship, and compassion that comes after we understand determinism and stop blaming people. I don't think we will have to ban any of it, unless you believe it can cause some people to become crazy and with children that does apply, but that is why we age rate violent video games, cartoons, films or whatever. Kids should not be playing Call of Duty or GTA, period, but unfortunately there is an epidemic of stupid parents not filtering the content their kids are seeing, that doesn't mean we should outlaw them altogether, surely.
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