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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 11, 2014 17:06:10 GMT
Just because we usually talk about the subject of free will and determinism in the context of humans, does not mean that this is a human only issue. Other animals appear to experience pleasure and pain just as much as humans. It is for this reason that many become vegetarian and/or vegan. Eating animals is no different than cannibalism if you think about the fact that humans are just one type of animal. A cow may look different than I do, but so does every other human I have seen. Speciesism is no better than racism or sexism. I am in no way prepared to discuss all of the information about Veganism, but I would like to suggest to humans that they try to put themselves in the place of the cows, pigs, chickens, and turkeys that they are buying in a store and eating. Would you kill that animal yourself? If so, would you be equally as willing to kill and eat another human? Only you can answer these questions. I just wrote this to help you think about the matter. What does this have to do with free will and determinism? Everything! No matter what your answers are to the two questions above that I asked, you must have a reason to explain why you would and would not do it. I believe that it is mostly a matter of nurture. I grew up eating meat without questioning it. It was only after I started questioning everything about life and death issues that I started to see that what we think about non-human animals has an effect on what we think of human animals. If we see a cow or chicken as something that exists entirely for our pleasure, we may start thinking that humans also exist only for what we can use them for. This sort of philosophy is rather selfish and will never lead to a happy world. For more information on the case for Veganism, I suggest "Why We Should Go Vegan" by Magnus Vinding www.smashwords.com/books/view/409738Magnus has also written a book defining and refuting Free Will: www.smashwords.com/books/view/464795
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 13, 2014 8:41:47 GMT
The free will-animal connection, as with climate change denial, is about a belief that implicates people so completely in a massive and ongoing cruelty, inducing so much guilt, that most people cannot face what they are doing. Because many free will-believers, however much they deny this to themselves, know that animals can suffer terribly, and know that they are, in effect, torturing over 50 billion farm animals each year, they, at a level of thinking completely unconscious to them, become incapable of facing the matter through anything approaching either reason or compassion.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 13, 2014 18:33:57 GMT
The free will-animal connection, as with climate change denial, is about a belief that implicates people so completely in a massive and ongoing cruelty, inducing so much guilt, that most people cannot face what they are doing. Because many free will-believers, however much they deny this to themselves, know that animals can suffer terribly, and know that they are, in effect, torturing over 50 billion farm animals each year, they, at a level of thinking completely unconscious to them, become incapable of facing the matter through anything approaching either reason or compassion. I had no idea how much suffering was being inflicted on these animals because it wasn't something that is talked about. I can no longer even look at meat without the knowledge that some animal had to die for it to be there.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 7:45:52 GMT
The problem with free will belief is that it burdens people with such horrific fundamental responsibility over actions very few of us would take of our own free will, (conducting the modern-day slaughtering process would likely make vegans of very many of us) and creates such guilt-induced pain, our unconscious has little choice but to look away from our cruelty in denial, denying, for example, the obvious fact that animals suffer keenly. Once we're freed that wrongful indictment and the pain it invariably creates in us, we are much more "free" to see our treatment of animals with compassion, concern and objectivity.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 14, 2014 23:27:41 GMT
I also think people need to be educated about the actual problems in the factory farming industry, as most people will avoid any video or photo in which animals are harmed, even though such is the norm in these industries (more denial and emotional partitioning due to cognitive dissonance). Another consideration is what to do about animal suffering in the wild (which is quite horrific), as people might be able to create goals to help.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 15, 2014 10:46:49 GMT
I also think people need to be educated about the actual problems in the factory farming industry, as most people will avoid any video or photo in which animals are harmed, even though such is the norm in these industries (more denial and emotional partitioning due to cognitive dissonance). Another consideration is what to do about animal suffering in the wild (which is quite horrific), as people who might be able to create goals to help. I have seen some absolutely terrifying videos of what is done to animals. After seeing what I saw, there is no way to deny it anymore.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 15, 2014 10:47:01 GMT
I also think people need to be educated about the actual problems in the factory farming industry, as most people will avoid any video or photo in which animals are harmed, even though such is the norm in these industries (more denial and emotional partitioning due to cognitive dissonance). Another consideration is what to do about animal suffering in the wild (which is quite horrific), as people who might be able to create goals to help. I have seen some absolutely terrifying videos of what is done to animals. After seeing what I saw, there is no way to deny it anymore.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 16, 2014 20:44:49 GMT
It's hard enough to see the videos understanding that we didn't freely will what they depict. Imagine what it must be like for carnists to see those films, when they believe they have a free will and are responsible for that cruelty, and, deep down, no matter how hard they try to maintain the denial, they know those animals are suffering profoundly?
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 16, 2014 23:17:55 GMT
It's hard enough to see the videos understanding that we didn't freely will what they depict. Imagine what it must be like for carnists to see those films, when they believe they have a free will and are responsible for that cruelty, and, deep down, no matter how hard they try to maintain the denial, they know those animals are suffering profoundly? I had no idea what was going on for most of my life and so I didn't feel responsible. It was as simple as realizing that I needed to change with new information.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 20, 2014 22:48:29 GMT
That's interesting because it's kind of the reverse of what we're trying to do by leading the world to a new unfree will consciousness. Most people wrongly blame themselves and each other because they believe in free will, and that makes them feel fundamentally responsible, but when they awaken to the knowledge that nothing they do is up to them, all of the sudden that burden, and harm of wrongfully assumed responsibility, is lifted.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 20, 2014 23:07:00 GMT
That's interesting because it's kind of the reverse of what we're trying to do by leading the world to a new unfree will consciousness. Most people wrongly blame themselves and each other because they believe in free will, and that makes them feel fundamentally responsible, but when they awaken to the knowledge that nothing they do is up to them, all of the sudden that burden, and harm of wrongfully assumed responsibility, is lifted. I still have the feeling of responsibility because I know that if I want something to happen, I will do it because things don't happen without a cause. I think of it as a sense of duty yet without the blame or guilt.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 16:38:56 GMT
That's interesting because it's kind of the reverse of what we're trying to do by leading the world to a new unfree will consciousness. Most people wrongly blame themselves and each other because they believe in free will, and that makes them feel fundamentally responsible, but when they awaken to the knowledge that nothing they do is up to them, all of the sudden that burden, and harm of wrongfully assumed responsibility, is lifted. I still have the feeling of responsibility because I know that if I want something to happen, I will do it because things don't happen without a cause. I think of it as a sense of duty yet without the blame or guilt. Of course, a civilized society must accept that those with the power must do for those that cannot, this is not about punishing obviously, it's just common sense rules on how to run a society. It is quite possible that once people learn to accept we do not have a free will, war should be a thing of the past, hopefully So no worker would be sent to their early demise or torture to protect a country from terrorism.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 21, 2014 21:28:15 GMT
Yes, overcoming the free will illusion makes us naturally more caring because we don't blame those who need help for needing that help. Maybe just like people can't stand to see how we needlessly torture animals, they can't to really, really look at how horrible wars are because their belief that they have a free will causes them to wrongly blame themselves for creating them.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 21:47:27 GMT
Yes, overcoming the free will illusion makes us naturally more caring because we don't blame those who need help for needing that help. Maybe just like people can't stand to see how we needlessly torture animals, they can't to really, really look at how horrible wars are because their belief that they have a free will causes them to wrongly blame themselves for creating them. So true, under the free will belief, we expect people to help themselves and get out of messes that we falsely assume they chose. The animals who are being tortured can't help themselves and we know this applies just as much to them as it does the humans.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 21:56:04 GMT
Yes, overcoming the free will illusion makes us naturally more caring because we don't blame those who need help for needing that help. Maybe just like people can't stand to see how we needlessly torture animals, they can't to really, really look at how horrible wars are because their belief that they have a free will causes them to wrongly blame themselves for creating them. So true, under the free will belief, we expect people to help themselves and get out of messes that we falsely assume they chose. The animals who are being tortured can't help themselves and we know this applies just as much to them as it does the humans. After some consideration, perhaps it is best that it stays illegal to sell cocaine or any non prescribed drug to anyone point blank, I mean I know it is stupid to take those drugs in the first place but some people started becoming addicts when they were like very young teens or children, drug dealing is evil of course, but unfortunately the dealers are not at fault either, so maybe the Chinese should take a look at what neuroscience is telling us before they call it justice to execute people for importing heroin. It is murder to exploit vulnerable people by selling them poisons, but maybe there is a better way than to simply take the easy way out by ignoring the causes.
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