|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 22, 2014 13:39:02 GMT
Yes, overcoming the free will illusion makes us naturally more caring because we don't blame those who need help for needing that help. Maybe just like people can't stand to see how we needlessly torture animals, they can't to really, really look at how horrible wars are because their belief that they have a free will causes them to wrongly blame themselves for creating them. So true, under the free will belief, we expect people to help themselves and get out of messes that we falsely assume they chose. The animals who are being tortured can't help themselves and we know this applies just as much to them as it does the humans. Poaching and mistreatment of pets has been illegal for some time and it should remain that way, but animal rights activists should be arguing for an eventual ban on meat. George Ortega has a legitimate point here, if we were the animals, how would we like it if our families were needlessly slaughtered and tortured to end up on someone's dinner plate? The reality may be hard to accept for some especially if you grew up in a family who eats meat, but the truth is we do not need meat to survive, dairy is another story, cows and goats don't necessarily suffer from having milk extracted from them, just as long as the calves get their share.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 22, 2014 13:47:51 GMT
So true, under the free will belief, we expect people to help themselves and get out of messes that we falsely assume they chose. The animals who are being tortured can't help themselves and we know this applies just as much to them as it does the humans. After some consideration, perhaps it is best that it stays illegal to sell cocaine or any non prescribed drug to anyone point blank, I mean I know it is stupid to take those drugs in the first place but some people started becoming addicts when they were like very young teens or children, drug dealing is evil of course, but unfortunately the dealers are not at fault either, so maybe the Chinese should take a look at what neuroscience is telling us before they call it justice to execute people for importing heroin. It is murder to exploit vulnerable people by selling them poisons, but maybe there is a better way than to simply take the easy way out by ignoring the causes. I think that stopping the sale of harmful drugs is a lot better than punishing those who have become addicted already by pressure from others. I am really upset at even cigarettes and the damage they do to people like me who are forced to be around smokers.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 22, 2014 13:55:42 GMT
After some consideration, perhaps it is best that it stays illegal to sell cocaine or any non prescribed drug to anyone point blank, I mean I know it is stupid to take those drugs in the first place but some people started becoming addicts when they were like very young teens or children, drug dealing is evil of course, but unfortunately the dealers are not at fault either, so maybe the Chinese should take a look at what neuroscience is telling us before they call it justice to execute people for importing heroin. It is murder to exploit vulnerable people by selling them poisons, but maybe there is a better way than to simply take the easy way out by ignoring the causes. I think that stopping the sale of harmful drugs is a lot better than punishing those who have become addicted already by pressure from others. I am really upset at even cigarettes and the damage they do to people like me who are forced to be around smokers. As a non smoker, I've always found it utter hypocrisy that tobacco could be sold in light of the flamboyant harm it has done, it is the leading cause of lung cancer in the United Kingdom and puts a strain both economically and mortally on our health services. There is a waiting list for organ donations and a lot of it appears to be clogged up by addicts who made the wrong decisions in life, cannabis however can be consumed safely by a vaporizer, once it becomes legal I might try it because I've been hearing and researching on the health benefits the stuff has.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 22, 2014 13:59:41 GMT
I think that stopping the sale of harmful drugs is a lot better than punishing those who have become addicted already by pressure from others. I am really upset at even cigarettes and the damage they do to people like me who are forced to be around smokers. As a non smoker, I've always found it utter hypocrisy that tobacco could be sold in light of the flamboyant harm it has done, it is the leading cause of lung cancer in the United Kingdom and puts a strain both economically and mortally on our health services. There is a waiting list for organ donations and a lot of it appears to be clogged up by addicts who made the wrong decisions in life, cannabis however can be consumed safely by a vaporizer, once it becomes legal I might try it because I've been hearing and researching on the health benefits the stuff has. Totally agree with you there. Anything that is causing pain and death is something that I want to eliminate. What really hurts me is knowing that children grow up around their parents who are smoking and drinking all kinds of dangerous stuff.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 22, 2014 14:10:48 GMT
As a non smoker, I've always found it utter hypocrisy that tobacco could be sold in light of the flamboyant harm it has done, it is the leading cause of lung cancer in the United Kingdom and puts a strain both economically and mortally on our health services. There is a waiting list for organ donations and a lot of it appears to be clogged up by addicts who made the wrong decisions in life, cannabis however can be consumed safely by a vaporizer, once it becomes legal I might try it because I've been hearing and researching on the health benefits the stuff has. Totally agree with you there. Anything that is causing pain and death is something that I want to eliminate. What really hurts me is knowing that children grow up around their parents who are smoking and drinking all kinds of dangerous stuff. True, addiction is bad, and smoking/drinking habits are inherently worse when done in front of children, there is also the problem of prostitution. Fine adults can do what they want, but I've been told stories where even kids have been forced into prostitution and that is wrong. Obviously we're not going to stop teenagers from having sex, but when an underage teen is mating with another teenager who is only slightly older that's an entirely different matter.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 23, 2014 7:15:34 GMT
Just like with our maltreatment of animals, the free will delusion leads us to deny our addictions and other harmful habits. It may unfortunately be that we humans need to free ourselves from our mistaken notion of fundamental moral responsibility in order to face ourselves squarely enough to change ourselves, and only then can we extend that reason and compassion to other animals, although the fact that our livestock industry accounts for over 20 percent of greenhouse gas emissions each year leads me to suspect we'll be tackling or evil factory farming practices much sooner than most of us yet realize.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 13:38:53 GMT
Just like with our maltreatment of animals, the free will delusion leads us to deny our addictions and other harmful habits. It may unfortunately be that we humans need to free ourselves from our mistaken notion of fundamental moral responsibility in order to face ourselves squarely enough to change ourselves, and only then can we extend that reason and compassion to other animals, although the fact that our livestock industry accounts for over 20 percent of greenhouse gas emissions each year leads me to suspect we'll be tackling or evil factory farming practices much sooner than most of us yet realize. What should be done about wild, natural predators? prey suffer in their final moments before they are eaten be it being suffocated by python or poisoned by cobra and waiting for their body functions to shut down, while in pain before becoming a meal. We all know it's not their fault and they're just doing it to survive, however modifications to their DNA could change their diet to vegetarian, thing is that would throw the food chain out of balance and you'd create a situation where animals would overpopulate.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 24, 2014 23:32:19 GMT
Although nature can be cruel, that cruelty generally is very short-lived, and the animals probably quickly just go into relatively painless shock, as distinct from the kind of torture we inflict on animals, like keeping pigs in cages so small that they can't even turn around for months at a time. I hope scientists begin to do animal abuse-denial studies that confirm our guess that our unconscious just can't accept how horrible we are being to those animals, and denies that animals can suffer pain, and that the research encourage more academics to openly refute free will as a way of addressing that abuse.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 24, 2014 23:38:42 GMT
Good point. Animals in the wild don't suffer nearly as long as domesticated animals.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 28, 2014 19:57:11 GMT
What's interesting about free will belief is how stupid it makes so many of us. How people can even begin to conclude that animals don't suffer is beyond me, and I guess I should be more technical in questioning why the universe, or God, would make people so stupid.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 28, 2014 20:06:56 GMT
What's interesting about free will belief is how stupid it makes so many of us. How people can even begin to conclude that animals don't suffer is beyond me, and I guess I should be more technical in questioning why the universe, or God, would make people so stupid. People are so caught up with crimes against humans some tend to forget the trauma animals go through, believe me I have discovered a video documentary where people at slaughter houses were exposed for torturing the animals, the details are troubling and I do not wish to go into detail of what happened as it would probably make your stomach turn. It's so wrong though, I have also heard stories where the Chinese boil cats and dogs alive on top of some news feed I looked up about them putting sharks back into the ocean after chopping their fins off, all this cruelty for the sake of creating shark fin soup.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 28, 2014 20:16:31 GMT
What's interesting about free will belief is how stupid it makes so many of us. How people can even begin to conclude that animals don't suffer is beyond me, and I guess I should be more technical in questioning why the universe, or God, would make people so stupid. Obviously animals must feel pain or they would not try to avoid it like they do. The knowledge that they are just like me is one that I came to just by observation of their actions.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 28, 2014 20:36:40 GMT
What's interesting about free will belief is how stupid it makes so many of us. How people can even begin to conclude that animals don't suffer is beyond me, and I guess I should be more technical in questioning why the universe, or God, would make people so stupid. Obviously animals must feel pain or they would not try to avoid it like they do. The knowledge that they are just like me is one that I came to just by observation of their actions. You can tell a being is conscious from the day they attempt to avoid pain, if AI robots ever gained self awareness and valued their own existence in the future, you could conclude they were conscious of themselves and their surroundings. If it happens, it would require the complexity of quantum computers, we don't have those yet.
|
|
trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by trick on Dec 7, 2014 15:08:07 GMT
I'd suggest because the very process that has produced people is "dumb" forces. We are trying to move from a state of no intelligence to one of intelligence and it's this process that is easier said than done. ;-)
|
|