|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 12, 2014 12:02:52 GMT
The most common defense of Free Will that I hear from people is the claim: "If we are just robots, life has no meaning."
This is nonsense. When was the last time you got bored with your computer, ipod, car, microwave, or television because they we just a machine? If anything, I feel that like all machines, we have a purpose. We just don't usually have a clue what it is nor do we come with a warranty or instruction manual. We may be machines, but there is a big difference between living machines and non-living machines. We are irreplacable. Think about yourself and those you love. If they were to die, would you be able to buy a replacement for them? Because such a thing is impossible, I can still make the claim that all biological robots have an advantage over man made machines. This is why I my pro-life position is not dependent on magical abilities like free will. It also made it easier to accept the simple fact that I was a robot which was programmed by nature and nurture.
Our understanding of what life is and its meaning is also determined by our causal past. I have found that my life has more meaning if things have a cause, reason, or purpose. If my choices were completely free, they would be random and without an meaning that I could see. I am happy that this is not the case.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 13, 2014 8:50:37 GMT
Under the free will illusion, meaning in life has to do with growing or self-actualizing more and more as human beings. But because we have no more control over what we do than does a puppet, this perspective no longer makes sense, and we're left manifesting the universe's, or God's, meaning for us, whatever that might actually be.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 13, 2014 18:28:42 GMT
Under the free will illusion, meaning in life has to do with growing or self-actualizing more and more as human beings. But because we have no more control over what we do than does a puppet, this perspective no longer makes sense, and we're left manifesting the universe's, or God's, meaning for us, whatever that might actually be. Could this explain why Christians tell me that without God there is no meaning in life? It never made sense to me because I got my meaning from what I can see, hear, and feel.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 14, 2014 7:39:59 GMT
The Judeo-Christian conception of God as omnipotent strongly implies that God's meaning is what will prevail in all instances over the meaning of all of God's creatures. This is ironic because to suggest we have a free will, and our own autonomous meaning, is to suggest that God either doesn't exist or perhaps exists and has meaning only within the constraints of the meaning created by humans.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 16, 2014 18:06:10 GMT
The Judeo-Christian conception of God as omnipotent strongly implies that God's meaning is what will prevail in all instances over the meaning of all of God's creatures. This is ironic because to suggest we have a free will, and our own autonomous meaning, is to suggest that God either doesn't exist or perhaps exists and has meaning only within the constraints of the meaning created by humans. This is extremely interesting to me because many Christians have a form of "compatibilism". They think that "Everything that happens is God's will" but that "We also have chosen of our free will to rebel against God and we deserve punishment".
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 19, 2014 4:16:18 GMT
Yes, it is completely contradictory, and makes no sense. Belief in free will actually amounts to the sin of blasphemy in that it ascribes to humans a power to choose that, according to his omnipotence, actually belongs to God.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 19, 2014 11:31:45 GMT
Yes, it is completely contradictory, and makes no sense. Belief in free will actually amounts to the sin of blasphemy in that it ascribes to humans a power to choose that, according to his omnipotence, actually belongs to God. Even funnier is the knowledge that free will is an ability that no one including God could have. Whatever God would do would also have a cause.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 20, 2014 17:02:44 GMT
You could argue life would be less meaningful if people were 100% willfully evil towards one another, because free will would suggest human behavior is unpredictable in every sense of the word therefore there would be no way to rehabilitate most criminals no matter how much scientific research is done. However because there is no free will as everything in nature is caused, there has to be a way to mitigate harmful actions before they happen.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 20, 2014 20:53:20 GMT
That's a good point about free will being unpredictable, and therefore not amenable to any kind of influence that could simply be overridden by free will. Ironically, we're able to control more, in a very importance sense, because we don't have a free will.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 20, 2014 21:35:22 GMT
I find you respectable cause I like the part where you put in just because free will is an illusion it doesn't give people an excuse to do whatever they want, that is so true. For the simple reason humans and animals experience pain morality must exist in some form, but it should be left up to the scientific community, like the one you appear to be from, to objectify morality.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 19:26:42 GMT
That's a good point about free will being unpredictable, and therefore not amenable to any kind of influence that could simply be overridden by free will. Ironically, we're able to control more, in a very importance sense, because we don't have a free will. It does ironically make me feel more in control to know how things happen so I can prevent pain. We can predict which people are dangerous and try to put a stop to their actions.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 19:30:21 GMT
You could argue life would be less meaningful if people were 100% willfully evil towards one another, because free will would suggest human behavior is unpredictable in every sense of the word therefore there would be no way to rehabilitate most criminals no matter how much scientific research is done. However because there is no free will as everything in nature is caused, there has to be a way to mitigate harmful actions before they happen. The majority of people don't will evil on others. This is good news and I see it as evidence that most of us are wired to be peaceful.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 19:48:28 GMT
That's a good point about free will being unpredictable, and therefore not amenable to any kind of influence that could simply be overridden by free will. Ironically, we're able to control more, in a very importance sense, because we don't have a free will. It does ironically make me feel more in control to know how things happen so I can prevent pain. We can predict which people are dangerous and try to put a stop to their actions. Their predictability makes me feel safer, because now I know it is possible to stop a situation from getting chaotic. In a world with unpredictable people none of us would be safe.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 2:30:38 GMT
There is a certain safety that comes from being able to predict something. For much of my life I did not feel safe under the free will belief because I thought anyone could at any time turn against me.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 24, 2014 0:25:26 GMT
Great points, Jaime and Chandler! With free will belief comes this uncertainty about what others can potentially do, even though it goes against their character and personality and upbringing, any time they want, leading to much greater apprehension than when we appreciate that we can trust people, because they don't have a free will, to remain relatively constant in their ways.
|
|