trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by trick on Nov 18, 2014 15:12:34 GMT
Absolutely; with free will invariably comes indictment, then guilt, and the unconscious attempt to escape the pain of that guilt through denial. Certainly humanity revering life more would also be necessary, but I think overcoming free will belief would be an invaluable help in enabling us to do so. I think a rational case can be made for having an abortion, but that you are correct that if one already has a notion that having one is in some way wrong (and has cognitive dissonance over such) that guilt can lead to them denying the problematic idea they have dissonance over. The question remains if all "life" should be "revered" (a point that I'd suggest is quite debatable), as it may be the case that other "harm" considerations ethically trump the "life" consideration (regardless of the no free will understanding) - contingent on the circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 19, 2014 5:22:07 GMT
Yes, the benefit of our overcoming the belief in free will is that it frees us to objectively consider the factors related to abortion, rather than deciding what to do or not according to a largely unconscious attempt to overcome the indictment-related pain that prevents us from facing these factors squarely.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 19, 2014 11:23:37 GMT
Absolutely; with free will invariably comes indictment, then guilt, and the unconscious attempt to escape the pain of that guilt through denial. Certainly humanity revering life more would also be necessary, but I think overcoming free will belief would be an invaluable help in enabling us to do so. I think a rational case can be made for having an abortion, but that you are correct that if one already has a notion that having one is in some way wrong (and has cognitive dissonance over such) that guilt can lead to them denying the problematic idea they have dissonance over. The question remains if all "life" should be "revered" (a point that I'd suggest is quite debatable), as it may be the case that other "harm" considerations ethically trump the "life" consideration (regardless of the no free will understanding) - contingent on the circumstances. Cognitive dissonance is unsustainable. Where there are two beliefs that conflict, only one of them will win in the end.
|
|
|
Post by George Ortega on Nov 23, 2014 6:33:48 GMT
I think a rational case can be made for having an abortion, but that you are correct that if one already has a notion that having one is in some way wrong (and has cognitive dissonance over such) that guilt can lead to them denying the problematic idea they have dissonance over. The question remains if all "life" should be "revered" (a point that I'd suggest is quite debatable), as it may be the case that other "harm" considerations ethically trump the "life" consideration (regardless of the no free will understanding) - contingent on the circumstances. I wanted to address your second point again, because the value of overcoming the free will illusion is virtually entirely about doing good, and avoiding evil, so it becomes important to also consider what is actually good and evil. I agree that life is valuable not simply as an axiom, but because life creates the possibility for pleasure and happiness; when considered within the context of what we believe happens after we die, and that the vast majority of us hope for, and expect, that our afterlife may be far more pleasant and happy than our present life, what needs to be considered is if the act of abortion can be considered an act of euthanasia.
|
|
trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by trick on Nov 23, 2014 13:00:34 GMT
The fact that most people believe in an afterlife, to me, is similar to the fact that most people believe in free will - and it isn't just the life/harms of the person (who may have been aborted) that is the consideration, but also the harms such a person will cause to others in the form of indirect third world country "slave labor", harming animals, using of resources, crime, the environment, having children, and other ecological factors. I'd also suggest harm reduction in the world (most often) needs to trump pleasure obtainment, that both are ethically important, but that one (reduction of negative) often needs to supersede the other (obtainment of positive). :-)
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 15:44:13 GMT
The fact that most people believe in an afterlife, to me, is similar to the fact that most people believe in free will - and it isn't just the life/harms of the person (who may have been aborted) that is the consideration, but also the harms such a person will cause to others in the form of indirect third world country "slave labor", harming animals, using of resources, crime, the environment, having children, and other ecological factors. I'd also suggest harm reduction in the world (most often) needs to trump pleasure obtainment, that both are ethically important, but that one (reduction of negative) often needs to supersede the other (obtainment of positive). :-) Well according to rules of determinism, even idiots can't help being who they are, through lack of education or inability to keep their emotions in check, but for a little while I did hold a grudge against some imbecile from Youtube who thought I was a sex predator just because I asked a friends daughter what is it like being a girl on Facebook. That is all I said, nothing dirty and I even told my friends about it including the one on Skype I usually talk to during evenings, I did nothing wrong, if I did first there would have been evidence, second I doubt I'd make it to the police station with my limbs intact. Sometimes though it doesn't matter how much you try to reason with people, there is no getting through to them and that can be quite annoying, so I just give up trying with some people.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 17:35:25 GMT
The fact that most people believe in an afterlife, to me, is similar to the fact that most people believe in free will - and it isn't just the life/harms of the person (who may have been aborted) that is the consideration, but also the harms such a person will cause to others in the form of indirect third world country "slave labor", harming animals, using of resources, crime, the environment, having children, and other ecological factors. I'd also suggest harm reduction in the world (most often) needs to trump pleasure obtainment, that both are ethically important, but that one (reduction of negative) often needs to supersede the other (obtainment of positive). :-) A lot of people believe in an afterlife, free will, Santa Clause, god, and that life begins at birth. My decisions are determined by what I have reason to believe rather than what a bunch of other people believe who can't explain their reasons for believing it.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 17:45:24 GMT
The fact that most people believe in an afterlife, to me, is similar to the fact that most people believe in free will - and it isn't just the life/harms of the person (who may have been aborted) that is the consideration, but also the harms such a person will cause to others in the form of indirect third world country "slave labor", harming animals, using of resources, crime, the environment, having children, and other ecological factors. I'd also suggest harm reduction in the world (most often) needs to trump pleasure obtainment, that both are ethically important, but that one (reduction of negative) often needs to supersede the other (obtainment of positive). :-) A lot of people believe in an afterlife, free will, Santa Clause, god, and that life begins at birth. My decisions are determined by what I have reason to believe rather than what a bunch of other people believe who can't explain their reasons for believing it. Yeah, people who believe free will must first find a scientific explanation for it but there isn't one because it is self contradicting, you cannot do something that is beyond your capability. Lots of people are stuck in minimum wage jobs like Mcdonalds or Walmart, if they are lucky enough to have a job and are blamed for their position by crazy people who expect them all to magically overcome their present situation, what's worse is you get idiots who want to abolish the minimum wage altogether and they dogmatically believe that would solve unemployment or poverty.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 18:11:39 GMT
What effect do you think abolishing the minimum wage would have?
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 18:44:23 GMT
What effect do you think abolishing the minimum wage would have? Slavery, with no legislation to protect workers, corporations are able to exploit their labor force and pay them as little as possible. With no minimum wage law you end up with situations like factories in China or India, where their living standards mean they have to do without the many privileges people in developed nations enjoy, I heard some woman from Foxconn say (with translation) she wished she could afford the ipad, something she worked all hours to make for Apple and she herself cannot afford the very thing her bosses paid her to do.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 24, 2014 11:35:30 GMT
What effect do you think abolishing the minimum wage would have? Slavery, with no legislation to protect workers, corporations are able to exploit their labor force and pay them as little as possible. With no minimum wage law you end up with situations like factories in China or India, where their living standards mean they have to do without the many privileges people in developed nations enjoy, I heard some woman from Foxconn say (with translation) she wished she could afford the ipad, something she worked all hours to make for Apple and she herself cannot afford the very thing her bosses paid her to do. It really is slavery to not even be able to enjoy the thing you worked at building. Even with our minimum wage laws, many people in America can't make enough to survive on.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 24, 2014 15:30:07 GMT
Slavery, with no legislation to protect workers, corporations are able to exploit their labor force and pay them as little as possible. With no minimum wage law you end up with situations like factories in China or India, where their living standards mean they have to do without the many privileges people in developed nations enjoy, I heard some woman from Foxconn say (with translation) she wished she could afford the ipad, something she worked all hours to make for Apple and she herself cannot afford the very thing her bosses paid her to do. It really is slavery to not even be able to enjoy the thing you worked at building. Even with our minimum wage laws, many people in America can't make enough to survive on. And republicans make the excuse that the minimum wage laws causes unemployment or prices to skyrocket, people are unemployed for lots of different reasons and the other gaping flaw in their logic is that cost of living has been going up WITHOUT pay rises to the low skilled. How long has America had NMW at 7.25/h? They have no argument here, they've basically contradicted their own point by covering up the fact that companies are not all doing their part to make things affordable and are just making things worse for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 24, 2014 22:53:04 GMT
Clearly the economic situation for all families has to improve in some way. I think that poverty is probably one of the most major causes of abortion.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 24, 2014 23:06:14 GMT
Clearly the economic situation for all families has to improve in some way. I think that poverty is probably one of the most major causes of abortion. I think poverty on top of the free will belief is a toxic combination because it induces jealousy and the blaming of others for their own situation, which would then lead to criminal behavior like stealing and sometimes murder. Obviously the free will dogma needs to be overturned, but I feel that isn't enough to minimize crime, inequality can make people miserable or even desperate especially if they are homeless.
|
|
|
Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 24, 2014 23:24:22 GMT
I know that blame, inequality, and violence are promoted by free will belief. That knowledge changed everything in my life including how I viewed the abortion issue and the way we treat other animals.
|
|