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Post by George Ortega on Nov 9, 2014 22:25:34 GMT
This thread will be devoted to exploring the implications of believing in free will on the issue of abortion, with the aim of making abortion as rare as possible. Let's number each point, and try to cover as many as we can; Chandler, get us started.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 10, 2014 21:35:37 GMT
1. If I believed in free will, I would have to give up my fight against abortion. Knowing that women are not freely choosing abortion means that I can eliminate the causes.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 10, 2014 22:31:31 GMT
Can you explain your point in more detail? Free will believers probably assume that their alleged freedom from causes that lie outside of their control(as logically and scientifically impossible as that prospect is) grants them the ability to "choose" to not resort to abortion.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 10, 2014 23:10:06 GMT
1. If I believed in free will, I would have to give up my fight against abortion. Knowing that women are not freely choosing abortion means that I can eliminate the causes. 2. Also, doesn't it equally follow that: if I believed in free will, I would have to give up my fight for abortion. Knowing that women are not freely choosing birth means that I can eliminate the causes.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 10, 2014 23:19:55 GMT
Can you explain your point in more detail? Free will believers probably assume that their alleged freedom from causes that lie outside of their control(as logically and scientifically impossible as that prospect is) grants them the ability to "choose" to not resort to abortion. In reading and listening to stories from post abortive women, there was always one or more causes that led to their "choice". The first fact is that women don't even become pregnant of their own "free will".
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 10, 2014 23:31:07 GMT
Chandler; So, are you saying that the more people look for causes why they might want to have an abortion, like that having the child is too expensive, or too inconvenient, the better able they will be to understand that these reasons may not be as valid as they "feel" or appear? I'm not sure that women understanding that they didn't have the free will to become pregnant would help them decide to not have an abortion; this understanding may, actually, provide them an excuse for having the abortion, ignoring the fact that although we don't have a free will, natural law, or God, tends to punish us for the wrongs we do.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 10, 2014 23:39:03 GMT
'Trick, I think what Chandler is saying is that he works to end abortion because he predicts that his messages will, in fact, make a causal impact on those considering abortion. If people simply decide from the belief they have a free will, they are, in a certain sense, not really open to causal influences that might change their position on the matter.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 10, 2014 23:41:01 GMT
The first fact is that women don't even become pregnant of their own "free will". Chandler, Doesn't this fact also lend credence that a woman shouldn't necessarily take responsibility for being a 9 month host for something she did not freely choose to begin with?
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 10, 2014 23:44:06 GMT
'Trick, I think what Chandler is saying is that he works to end abortion because he predicts that his messages will, in fact, make a causal impact on those considering abortion. If people simply decide from the belief they have a free will, they are, in a certain sense, not really open to causal influences that might change their position on the matter. Indeed, I was just pointing out that such causal understandings flow equally for both sides of the abortion debate. That one could, for various reasons, attempt to make a causal impact in the other direction as well.
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 11, 2014 0:03:10 GMT
Trick, I agree with your reasoning, however, the free will belief-climate change denial thesis I developed probably also applies to the abortion issue, perhaps making disbelief in free will the wiser perspective. In other words, to the extent women feel that they, of their own free will, are choosing to have an abortion, this perspective might, in an effort to protect their self-identity as a "good" person, lead them to therefore conclude that abortion is not actually immoral.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 11, 2014 0:21:42 GMT
Trick, I agree with your reasoning, however, the free will belief-climate change denial thesis I developed probably also applies to the abortion issue, perhaps making disbelief in free will the wiser perspective. In other words, to the extent women feel that they, of their own free will, are choosing to have an abortion, this perspective might, in an effort to protect their self-identity as a "good" person, lead them to therefore conclude that abortion is not actually immoral. Climate change denial causes (will cause) much suffering, but I'd argue so does procreation. In other words, I'd argue the ethics of abortion itself (due to me being an antinatalist/consequentialist) are dissimilar to climate change denial...and that birthing may actually have an immoral consequence itself that is closer to climate change denial.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 11, 2014 2:22:11 GMT
Chandler; So, are you saying that the more people look for causes why they might want to have an abortion, like that having the child is too expensive, or too inconvenient, the better able they will be to understand that these reasons may not be as valid as they "feel" or appear? I'm not sure that women understanding that they didn't have the free will to become pregnant would help them decide to not have an abortion; this understanding may, actually, provide them an excuse for having the abortion, ignoring the fact that although we don't have a free will, natural law, or God, tends to punish us for the wrongs we do. Actually, if we stop blaming women for what they did not choose, we may instead show them compassion and be more likely to help provide what they need so that they do not feel as forced to kill their children just to avoid the blame and guilt that people falsely attribute to them. I believe that abortion is against the causal will of most of these women and that they are victims which should not be treated the way often are by our free will believing culture.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 11, 2014 2:26:58 GMT
'Trick, I think what Chandler is saying is that he works to end abortion because he predicts that his messages will, in fact, make a causal impact on those considering abortion. If people simply decide from the belief they have a free will, they are, in a certain sense, not really open to causal influences that might change their position on the matter. George, you are better at interpreting my messages than I am at explaining them. I do believe that what I speak in my videos and write about will cause some positive change in those who take the time to understand.
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trick
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by trick on Nov 11, 2014 14:46:16 GMT
Actually, if we stop blaming women for what they did not choose, we may instead show them compassion and be more likely to help provide what they need so that they do not feel as forced to kill their children just to avoid the blame and guilt that people falsely attribute to them. I believe that abortion is against the causal will of most of these women and that they are victims which should not be treated the way often are by our free will believing culture. I think most women feel pressured to not have an abortion (or are looked down upon if they do) rather than the other way around, and often try to conceal the fact that they had one due to such. Also, I think perhaps a new thread should be built on "ethics without free will", as things such as the abortion debate really do fall under a broader ethical system/understanding.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 11, 2014 17:17:29 GMT
Actually, if we stop blaming women for what they did not choose, we may instead show them compassion and be more likely to help provide what they need so that they do not feel as forced to kill their children just to avoid the blame and guilt that people falsely attribute to them. I believe that abortion is against the causal will of most of these women and that they are victims which should not be treated the way often are by our free will believing culture. I think most women feel pressured to not have an abortion (or are looked down upon if they do) rather than the other way around, and often try to conceal the fact that they had one due to such. Also, I think perhaps a new thread should be built on "ethics without free will", as things such as the abortion debate really do fall under a broader ethical system/understanding. If they do abort, they are told they are the scum of the earth and will go to hell. If they don't, then they are constantly bossed around by others about how they should raise their kids. Women have it bad both ways and I want to reduce all blame, shame, guilt, and fear that leads them into denial about what abortion is.
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