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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 17:08:53 GMT
Forgiveness is a tricky subject. I have often asked people what it means to forgive someone. I never got a straight answer. Wordweb has two definitions of "forgive".
1. Stop blaming or grant forgiveness
2. Absolve from payment
Which type of forgiveness you are talking about makes a big difference. Obviously we can't blame people for their actions since they don't have free will and can't choose to be perfect people who never do anything wrong. This does not mean that we have to absolve them from payment if they have stolen or broken something. If someone playing basedball breaks a window, it would still make sense for them to pay to fix it if possible. This is not to punish them for the crime of baseball, but someone needs to pay for it, and knowing that you are expected to fix what you have broken will automatically cause you to avoid the action in the future if you don't want the same effect.
There are times of course when we have done irreparable damage that can't be fixed no matter what we do. This is all the more reason to avoid many actions. People cannot magically be unkilled or unraped. Some things are reversible and others aren't. Knowing this is what determines which risks I take and which I don't.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 17:20:52 GMT
Well in a case of a murder or rape the damage was already done, that is why it is important to spot the warning signs in the mentally ill and prevent the situation from taking place by putting them in mental institutions and getting them therapy. For example with rapists they may or may not have had an obsession with their would be victim prior to the rape, but sick people who are stalking and threatening others are clearly a problem and need help.
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 19:18:28 GMT
Well in a case of a murder or rape the damage was already done, that is why it is important to spot the warning signs in the mentally ill and prevent the situation from taking place by putting them in mental institutions and getting them therapy. For example with rapists they may or may not have had an obsession with their would be victim prior to the rape, but sick people who are stalking and threatening others are clearly a problem and need help. I totally agree that these people need help. So many people want to deny that mental illness exists and therefore discourage people from seeking help. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 19:31:06 GMT
Well in a case of a murder or rape the damage was already done, that is why it is important to spot the warning signs in the mentally ill and prevent the situation from taking place by putting them in mental institutions and getting them therapy. For example with rapists they may or may not have had an obsession with their would be victim prior to the rape, but sick people who are stalking and threatening others are clearly a problem and need help. I totally agree that these people need help. So many people want to deny that mental illness exists and therefore discourage people from seeking help. True, I think it is wrong to deny the existence of mental illness, as if there is some outside or supernatural force that allows them to override their conditioning, that's nonsense. I don't truly blame people who have suffered at the hands of these kinds of people in the past for their harsh words about criminals, but they must understand it is not all as black and white as they make it sound, be it a skinhead/highly religious person who is contemplating murdering a black or homosexual person, possibly due to indoctrination by parents who held bigoted beliefs, or a self confessed pedophiles like Jack Mcclellan who has not offended (yet) but suffer from damaged sexuality, they're still human beings and need to be treated as such. Sadly, when it comes to pedophiles or alleged rapists, they're assumed guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion, people still blame them and some even claim sexuality is a choice, it isn't, neuroscience disproved it a long time ago. |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 21, 2014 19:44:08 GMT
I totally agree that these people need help. So many people want to deny that mental illness exists and therefore discourage people from seeking help. True, I think it is wrong to deny the existence of mental illness, as if there is some outside or supernatural force that allows them to override their conditioning, that's nonsense. I don't truly blame people who have suffered at the hands of these kinds of people in the past for their harsh words about criminals, but they must understand it is not all as black and white as they make it sound, be it a skinhead/highly religious person who is contemplating murdering a black or homosexual person, possibly due to indoctrination by parents who held bigoted beliefs, or a self confessed pedophiles like Jack Mcclellan who has not offended (yet) but suffer from damaged sexuality, they're still human beings and need to be treated as such. Sadly, when it comes to pedophiles or alleged rapists, they're assumed guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion, people still blame them and some even claim sexuality is a choice, it isn't, neuroscience disproved it a long time ago. I may not know the neuroscience, but I figured out that if sexuality was a choice, we could choose to all be asexual because of the obvious benefits. Not only are people blamed for their sexuality but also any actions they do while completely psychotic as a result of mental illness. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 21, 2014 19:56:42 GMT
True, I think it is wrong to deny the existence of mental illness, as if there is some outside or supernatural force that allows them to override their conditioning, that's nonsense. I don't truly blame people who have suffered at the hands of these kinds of people in the past for their harsh words about criminals, but they must understand it is not all as black and white as they make it sound, be it a skinhead/highly religious person who is contemplating murdering a black or homosexual person, possibly due to indoctrination by parents who held bigoted beliefs, or a self confessed pedophiles like Jack Mcclellan who has not offended (yet) but suffer from damaged sexuality, they're still human beings and need to be treated as such. Sadly, when it comes to pedophiles or alleged rapists, they're assumed guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion, people still blame them and some even claim sexuality is a choice, it isn't, neuroscience disproved it a long time ago. I may not know the neuroscience, but I figured out that if sexuality was a choice, we could choose to all be asexual because of the obvious benefits. Not only are people blamed for their sexuality but also any actions they do while completely psychotic as a result of mental illness. I hear you, I'm hetero but single. But if I had the free choice I'd probably choose to be asexual as well, sexuality is natural, I get that, its function is to procreate and continue the species. However some aspects of sex can interfere with your everyday life, no one wants to talk about sex while they are eating because it would put you off your meal lol and truth is, the only reason we even think about sex in the first place is because we developed it through evolution, if there were no genders or opposite sexes and if we were immortal, things would have turned out very different for humanity. |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 22, 2014 14:04:32 GMT
I may not know the neuroscience, but I figured out that if sexuality was a choice, we could choose to all be asexual because of the obvious benefits. Not only are people blamed for their sexuality but also any actions they do while completely psychotic as a result of mental illness. I hear you, I'm hetero but single. But if I had the free choice I'd probably choose to be asexual as well, sexuality is natural, I get that, its function is to procreate and continue the species. However some aspects of sex can interfere with your everyday life, no one wants to talk about sex while they are eating because it would put you off your meal lol and truth is, the only reason we even think about sex in the first place is because we developed it through evolution, if there were no genders or opposite sexes and if we were immortal, things would have turned out very different for humanity. I like the idea of people not having a gender and living forever so that they can continue to learn and enjoy life. You are right in that something about the thought of sex can ruin your appetite. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 22, 2014 14:17:18 GMT
I hear you, I'm hetero but single. But if I had the free choice I'd probably choose to be asexual as well, sexuality is natural, I get that, its function is to procreate and continue the species. However some aspects of sex can interfere with your everyday life, no one wants to talk about sex while they are eating because it would put you off your meal lol and truth is, the only reason we even think about sex in the first place is because we developed it through evolution, if there were no genders or opposite sexes and if we were immortal, things would have turned out very different for humanity. I like the idea of people not having a gender and living forever so that they can continue to learn and enjoy life. You are right in that something about the thought of sex can ruin your appetite. Well that's just it, our primal instincts interfere with rational thinking and that becomes even more evident when you apply free will. Sex may grant you temporary pleasure be it with a partner or masturbation, but there is the element of embarrassment that comes after it which can lead to depression, in the future though if we are still around, human civilization would be so advanced that some of us would've traded immortality for our ability to breed, in the coming years biological immortality in humans wont be science fiction anymore. |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 22, 2014 15:27:07 GMT
Many people want immortality and I think this implies a general desire to live. This is part of why I think life has meaning and should be protected.
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 22, 2014 22:22:11 GMT
Many people want immortality and I think this implies a general desire to live. This is part of why I think life has meaning and should be protected. Way I see it is though if we're going to make humans immortal, we should extend the same treatment to domesticated animals. You could argue that isn't fair on the other animals but if you let pets die, the pain of loss could subconsciously lead to you making mistakes in future, pain affects human behavior. |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 2:21:09 GMT
Many people want immortality and I think this implies a general desire to live. This is part of why I think life has meaning and should be protected. Way I see it is though if we're going to make humans immortal, we should extend the same treatment to domesticated animals. You could argue that isn't fair on the other animals but if you let pets die, the pain of loss could subconsciously lead to you making mistakes in future, pain affects human behavior. I would see no reason why immortality would be limited to only humans. Also, many humans would want their pets to live as long as they did. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 23, 2014 2:25:29 GMT
Way I see it is though if we're going to make humans immortal, we should extend the same treatment to domesticated animals. You could argue that isn't fair on the other animals but if you let pets die, the pain of loss could subconsciously lead to you making mistakes in future, pain affects human behavior. I would see no reason why immortality would be limited to only humans. Also, many humans would want their pets to live as long as they did. My cat died yesterday morning, age 11 so I should know all about pain of loss, so does my family, I want my cat back but he is never coming back to us. |
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Post by chandlerklebs on Nov 23, 2014 2:28:49 GMT
I would see no reason why immortality would be limited to only humans. Also, many humans would want their pets to live as long as they did. My cat died yesterday morning, age 11 so I should know all about pain of loss, so does my family, I want my cat back but he is never coming back to us. The only pet I had was a hamster that died less than a year after she was given to us. I still think about that hamster and the way I mistakenly blamed myself for her death. |
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Post by George Ortega on Nov 24, 2014 0:21:06 GMT
My cat died yesterday morning, age 11 so I should know all about pain of loss, so does my family, I want my cat back but he is never coming back to us. Death of those we love is always hard, and I hope you're coping with your cat's death well. One of the reasons our world's overcoming the illusion of free will is very important is that for many, many people death is made much more difficult because it's tied into the concept of judgment as promoted by our churches and synagogues, and the fear of eternal damnation that I think is probably our world's most hateful belief. |
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Post by Jamie Soden on Nov 24, 2014 0:28:30 GMT
My cat died yesterday morning, age 11 so I should know all about pain of loss, so does my family, I want my cat back but he is never coming back to us. Death of those we love is always hard, and I hope you're coping with your cat's death well. One of the reasons our world's overcoming the illusion of free will is very important is that for many, many people death is made much more difficult because it's tied into the concept of judgment as promoted by our churches and synagogues, and the fear of eternal damnation that I think is probably our world's most hateful belief. I'm kinda getting used to the fact that our life here is temporary, so I'm coping with it. But I agree eternal damnation is a sick thing to support, even if we did have free will, transgressions cause only limited suffering, to any critical thinker it isn't hard to do the math, Hell is a messed up belief and I do believe it is time to ban the bible from schools, prison and government. |
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